"Future of HR" dialogue series – A conversation with Martin Seiler, CHRO of DB

By Constanze Schweinsteiger and Jann Oetken

In our "Future of HR" interview with Martin Seiler, Chief Human Resources and Legal Officer of Deutsche Bahn AG, we talked about the use of artificial intelligence and the fears associated with it. The positive change brought about by AI goes beyond technology: the implementation of cutting-edge AI tools drives a profound cultural transformation within organizations. Above all, the courage to experiment is central to this process.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: As a CHRO, how much do you focus on artificial intelligence?

Martin Seiler: AI plays a major role now – not only in my teams but also in many other areas of Deutsche Bahn. We usually approach the topic on a very fundamental level: What can AI do? What can't it do? What do we want to use it for? The focus is often on how we can increase efficiency in order to offer our customers a better service. AI has become indispensable in our workshops, for example, because it shortens train downtimes. As soon as an ICE comes into the workshop, our people know where the faults are, what is not working in the trains, from the air conditioning to the lighting, and they can get everything ready to make the repairs. Artificial intelligence also makes suggestions when we have to create special timetables – such as when there are changes on the day or disruptions. But it's the controller who has to make the actual decision.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: Where do you use AI in HR, specifically?

Martin Seiler: We use AI primarily where it helps us reduce repetitive tasks, lighten the workload for employees and give them more time for quality work. In recruitment, for example. For some of the 6,000 or so job interviews we do every month, an AI solution now coordinates appointments between HR, managers and, if necessary, works council reps. It compares their internal Outlook calendars and suggests three possible dates, which get sent to the applicants. As soon as one of these appointments is arranged, it is entered in the calendars of the DB participants and the automatic blocker that was previously set on the other appointment times is removed. Also thanks to AI, we have made huge leaps in the management of the 3,000 to 4,000 jobs that are constantly being advertised. The AI knows the number of applicants we expect to need for each job and the channels – online, print, regional – through which we advertise each position. A dashboard shows the status of each position and also controls the marketing budget. If enough people have already applied for a position, the remaining marketing budget is automatically redirected to positions that attracted fewer applications. This saves us money and on average it allows us to fill jobs faster than before.

Jann Oetken: Achieving efficiency gains through artificial intelligence in HR is an important driver for German companies in particular. We often observe a different motivation among US companies: They want to make better decisions with the help of AI – for example, in recruitment. Is that an aspect that is gaining importance for you?

Martin Seiler: At the moment, our main focus is still on efficiency. But it's already changing. Artificial intelligence is relevant in HR wherever there are complex issues that are hard to grasp at first glance and where we quickly reach the limits of our capacity. One example of how we use AI not only to increase efficiency but also to reduce complexity is when we use AI to analyze our staff development. Traditionally, we rely on job descriptions and job gradings from the collective agreements, but there are a lot of informal skills and expertise that are not covered by these. AI gives us a more accurate picture of our employees and enables us to put together the best teams for the respective tasks when planning staff deployment. AI also makes it possible to identify at an early stage when we are going to lose specialist knowledge due to people reaching retirement age, which means that we can then develop training programs and recruitment plans in good time. The qualitative and substantive aspect of describing skills is becoming increasingly important.

Jann Oetken: That is also our experience. Do you see AI fundamentally changing the corporate culture?

Martin Seiler: Yes, I'm happy to share my favorite example of how food culture is changing: At the instigation of the workforce, our canteens are now AI-driven. The AI uses data on the weather in the local area to create regionally adapted menus. It also uses attendance data from the buildings to estimate how busy the canteens will be. As a result, our food choices have become more attractive and we are more sustainable because we cook more targeted dishes and have less waste. Beyond the food issue, AI is changing our corporate culture because it requires us to have the courage to try things out – even when there's a risk of failure. This kind of experimentation and trial and error is not a traditional approach among many German companies, which normally want to pilot changes first and test them extensively before rolling them out. Bringing the new and old cultures together is a key management and transformation task that also needs to be taken into account in staff and leadership development.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: Do you already have any ideas or insights on how you want to develop the topic of leadership further?

Martin Seiler: Looking at HR holistically, I see two major topics that we should focus more on. The first is digitalization and AI, and the second is leadership support for transformation processes. The latter is not just about knowing the needs of employees, encouraging them and closely supporting the change process. Leaders must also understand what changes they are triggering with the transformation, and they must take responsibility for the speed of change. Our leadership academy addresses precisely these areas of expertise – without which no transformation can ultimately succeed. However, we certainly still have room for improvement here. We are also adapting our organization internally to reflect this aspect. We have created a new department directly under me that deals with digitalization, IT and AI in HR. This serves to underline the importance of the topic while also ensuring proper cross-linkage with IT. At the same time, we are strengthening our capabilities in change management – particularly around the transformation of professions and working conditions.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: How are management careers changing in an environment marked by trial and error and rapid change cycles with frequent new role descriptions? Is there a future for the classic career path in a vertical hierarchy?

Martin Seiler: It will still exist, especially in a critical infrastructure company as big as ours. But everything is getting more agile, and our specialist career path is a good one for IT and AI specialists in particular. We have a fundamental interest in making sure that our teams are staffed with a diverse range of skills. Our employees have a lot of expertise and valuable experience in rail operations. We specifically encourage exchanges between experienced, younger and brand new employees in order to promote knowledge transfer. Having this mix is a benefit for every team: Some bring agility and digital knowledge; others have experience and subject-matter expertise. Diversity plays a crucial role and we have a lot of interdisciplinarity. When we talk about integrating AI and other topics, we mean from a broader viewpoint and not just from an IT perspective. We all have to work with AI. On the other hand, we are changing how these topics are positioned in the organization: We are making them more important. Many tasks – be it the example I mentioned earlier from the workshop or the one from timetabling – will become more substantive and more exciting, which will make the work more attractive overall. For people today, it is often more important to have a meaningful job with opportunities to shape the future rather than just climb the career ladder.

Jann Oetken: In our experience, job security often takes a back seat.

Martin Seiler: Security remains important and we have a good, long tradition of that at DB with a very strong social partnership. But we are also faced with different issues these days. Young people today are increasingly concerned with whether their work is meaningful to them. On this question of jobs with purpose, I believe we can offer a convincing answer: Helping to shape the mobility transition, making sustainability a reality and being part of something new makes us attractive.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: So that means the classic career will also come with a new diversity in the future and will be motivated differently too?

Martin Seiler: Yes, that's right. We'll still have hierarchies and different levels. However, the value of roles is changing, especially in the areas I mentioned. They are becoming more important – something we are already noticing. At Deutsche Bahn, we are attracting new people from outside the company who find it very exciting to be working on innovative projects. For example, we are currently renovating the 70-kilometer high-speed line between Frankfurt and Mannheim from the ground up. Different individual employees have various sub-projects assigned to them. There's power in it – our people are throwing themselves into it and having fun.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: Going back to artificial intelligence, to what extent are people scared by AI and how do you deal with that? Can you give us a few insights into what you do to help mitigate their fears?

Martin Seiler: Anything new and unfamiliar can initially get people worried – sometimes even afraid: Will I be able to cope? Can I keep up? There were similar fears 30 years ago when e-mail was introduced, the internet emerged and digitalization experienced a surge. We worked in close collaboration with the Group Works Council right from the start on AI: What is AI? What can it do? What different forms does it come in? This phase of exchange was crucial for both sides to learn that we still don't have all the answers and that the developments are only just beginning. One concrete and very good result that came out of this was the development of our own Deutsche Bahn GPT, which differs from the systems available to the public: Our data remains protected and internal, and our learning happens in a closed space. This allows employees to test themselves and the system. It's a way of eliminating their fears step by step.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: Do you also measure things like the effect or the success of the AI tools you introduce? Do you use classic, success-based progress measurement?

Martin Seiler: Of course, we do keep track of that, but our real focus is on efficiency. It's about how we can do things better, faster and with less effort. Looking at the labor market – i.e. the shortage of skilled workforce – and profitability, the goal we are pursuing is to achieve at least the same amount or more with fewer employees. If we increase efficiency, we can reduce or relocate some of our staffing requirements. As a practical example, 80% of all station announcements are now made by a computerized voice. A few years ago, that was still done by people. It's important to recognize early on whether we can find other jobs for the affected employees. To do this, we use our internal labor market, a separate company that takes care of new job placements. For me, it would be a big mistake if we focused only on the new people coming in and the people leaving, when our existing employee base – around 150,000 to 200,000 people – make up by far the larger part. We need to reskill them and bring them on board with the new topics. That's also an important aspect of strategic HR planning.

Jann Oetken: That is a huge task – for other companies too. With so many topics to consider, how do you manage to stay focused? The AI playing field is huge.

Martin Seiler: We create a bank of topics and prioritize them according to these questions: What makes practical sense? What do we want to achieve? What will move us further along? Clear prioritization is very important because we're not able to implement everything at the same time or test it on every scale. These priorities then feed into our key focus areas, which we define annually. The HR Board, i.e. my leadership team, has a clear say in these focus topics. We make a joint decision on which projects to pursue and which not to pursue. It's very important to us to have clear values associated with the topic of AI. It should not be theoretical, but made tangible for people. We must have clarity and transparency on what AI-related content is already happening. To this end, we concluded a framework agreement with our Group Works Council that describes our processes. Indeed, this attracted a great deal of attention beyond Deutsche Bahn itself, both from the industry association BDI and the trade union confederation DGB, because we have taken a very progressive stance here.

Constanze Schweinsteiger: Just one last question: What would be your message to the HR community on the subject of AI?

Martin Seiler: Have the courage to try things out. To leaders in particular, I'd say: Put a huge amount of energy into the topic, and sometimes you have to allow things to not work out 100%.

Constanze Schweinsteiger/Jann Oetken: Thank you very much for talking to us.